This is part of my Makin' Bacon podcast, you can check out all the episodes or subscribe on your favorite podcast player.
Today we talk about how a podcast works, whether or not you are ready for one, and how to use a podcast to grow your brand.
As bloggers we always hear that you need to be everywhere. So we write on our blog, post on Facebook and Instagram, share images on Pinterest, and even post videos on YouTube. But one area most bloggers neglect is audio.
Over the last decade, podcasting has exploded, and many experts think it will continue to grow in the future. But just how do you get started podcasting, there's so many unknowns and it can be really intimidating, but today's guest is going to share her expertise and get us all set up for success.
The video of the interview is also available on the Makin' Bacon YouTube Channel.
BFF with the Chef aims to unite a community of like-minded enthusiasts who want to cook beyond recipes, better understand ingredients and hone their techniques and culinary instincts to cook the food they really want to eat.
Each week, Nicole invites a new blogger or culinary professional to her podcast for honest, candid conversations about what they're cooking, eating and the knowledge, inspiration, and experiences behind it all.
If you want to read some more about this, here are a few helpful links.
Today, we talk about how podcasting actually works, whether or not you're ready for one and how to use a podcast to grow your brand.
As bloggers, we always hear that you need to be everywhere. So we write on our blogs. We post on Facebook and Instagram. We share images on Pinterest and even post videos on YouTube, but one area most bloggers neglect is audio.
Over the last decade podcasting has exploded and many experts think it will continue to grow in the future. But just how do you get started in podcasting? There's so many unknowns, it can be really intimidating, but today's guest is going to share her expertise and get us all set up for success.
She's a home chef and food enthusiast who celebrates with her stomach and travels with her taste buds. On the BFF with the Chef podcast, she aims to help people benefit from the knowledge she seeks out every day, bringing them the very best inspiration, guidance and tips from the chefs and culinary professionals she admires.
Today, she's coming on to talk about podcasting, podcasting, and podcasting. I can't wait to learn from Nicole Schwegman the creator and host of the BFF with the Chef podcast.
Jason Logsdon: Nicole, welcome to Makin' Bacon.
Nicole Schwegman: Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be on a podcast that's called Makin' Bacon because you know how much I love bacon.
Jason: I do. I know you love it.
Nicole: It's ridiculous, it's awesome.
Jason: I'm so excited to have you on because I really believe that podcasting is a natural extension for a lot of bloggers for to expand their reach and grow their brand. It's a different medium, but it's still just telling a story and making your fans visualize something that you want them to visualize. So I can't wait to hear what you have to share about it.
But first, I always like to start with, what is it like around your dinner table on a typical day?
Nicole: Oh man. You know, that's interesting. So typically it's just me, um, around my dinner table and you know what? I have this philosophy. I once heard a story about Nancy Meyers and Nancy Meyer she's the director. She makes all those great movies like Something's Got To Give. It's always like you know, some movie involves a woman. I love that. And she's usually an older woman doing something. And I'll tell you something about Nancy Meyers, man, every, every kitchen in her movie house that she has for that fictional character is amazing. Like it's just the most beautiful kitchen ever.
And so the reason Nancy Meyers is always so attentive to that is because when she was just starting out, like she would make herself like a full dinner, like a roast chicken with potato the whole nine. Right. It would almost be like a dinner for a family of four and she would eat it. Right. And it was just like her way of like, you know, I don't know, like giving it to the patriarchy.
So I often live alone. And so I. A typical, like night around my dinner table. I'm not doing that whole eating a sandwich over the sink. Now I will make myself a full out meal because I think it's important to nourish yourself. And I think there's something just real empowering about making your own food and not just making like Spaghetti-Os out of a can. Y'all I'm talking about.
No kidding. Last night, I made a ribeye steak in the air frier. One of the bloggers who came on my podcast taught me how to do that. It's a real fast, easy way to get steak on your table. And you know what? I just had some, a broccoli to go along with it. Um, but that was a simple meal, but it's still a full-on meal for me.
Jason: There's something nice about cooking for yourself sometimes. That it's, you just make exactly what you want and don't have to worry about anyone else's tastes or concerns, and you can just do whatever you want, which can be really nice.
Nicole: Absolutely. And, you know, I tell people, look, I mean, if you're eating Spaghetti-Os out of the can, no shame, no judgment, you know, DU. But I feel like one of the ways, especially cause I'm in the Navy and for many years I deployed on ships and I didn't get, I didn't get the opportunity to make my own food, I had to eat what was made. Which God bless them, they do a great job with trying to feed us, but there's nothing like cooking a meal for yourself.
So it's always been a privilege and a pleasure for me to make dinner dinner for myself. And I really do try to like take the opportunity, especially because I'm about to move and won't be able to do that for another month now and I'm going to miss it. So I always try to make an actual, no kidding dinner for myself. Where like, you know, 3, you know, 2 sides meat and 3, you know, and that sort of thing. But yeah, that's my typical dinner table.
Jason: I love that, I think that's great. Just because when you're eating by yourself, You don't have to just eat Spaghetti-Os in a can, unless that's your choice and then more power to you.
Nicole: Exactly. Somebody right now screaming in their car going, I like Spaghetti-Os, and like we know. We're not talking to you.
Nothing wrong with making a package of Kraft Mac, and cheese, and eating the entire thing by yourself. That is acceptable dinner subtypes. If you want to take it up a notch, drop it a little butter, you know, breadcrumbs on top.
Maybe pop it in an oven for a few seconds just to chrisp it off, you know, just whatever. A little Trader Joe's like, even a little bacon and a lot, everything, you know, uh, uh, bagel seasoning from Trader Joe's, you know. Whatever. Yeah. Fancy. It doesn't matter. It's a meal.
Jason: One of the things I like about you is that you're very upfront about where you, how you got into podcasting and blogging and kind of your approach to everything. You're, you're very honest about it, which I love. So you were hosting the Everything Food Conference Happy Hour. You did an amazing job just there for an hour talking to people you know, commenting on Facebook basically.
And you'd shared your origin story. And I thought it was great, cause it's not like as little girl you always want to do start a podcast. And this was your dream job. Can you talk about how you got into podcasting?
Nicole: Oh for sure. because I'm about to lay some truths on people. So back in 2018, let's go back to January of 2018 and I thought to myself, man, I need a hobby. And uh, my only hobby is stuffing my face. And I, I love food, it's always been like, it's always been a constant in my life.
Like I said, I'm in the military. I've loved serving the nation. It's been an honor. But you know, one of the things, the sacrifices that you give up, you know, I was talk about sacrifices, they can be big, small. One of the small sacrifices you give up is the ability to always make your own food, which is important to me. And so whenever I was deployed or I was somewhere I couldn't cook, you know, I always looked forward to getting back to my kitchen.
So I thought, Ah, I'm stable for a couple years in one place, I need a hobby. I'm going to start a food blog. So I like, you know, I buy a domain name. Like I started a website and I'm like, alright, I'm starting a food blog.
And about a month later, I was like, Oh, this is too hard. All the food bloggers are right now are going amen. Like I just, I gave up. Cause apparently, you know, to start a food blog, you actually have to have recipes you should want to share and you gotta take pictures. Oh my gosh. It's like, I don't know how you do it, man. Like, Oh, forget it.
Also. I don't have any new ways to share Buffalo chicken dip. Like I just, I just got no original recipes. I just, you know, find other people's recipes and use them. So I thought to myself, I got, I got nothing. I got no grandma's recipes. She worked her whole life, so did my mom. Like we got no family recipes. My mom right now is disowning me. She's like we have one. No. And so I gave up on my blog.
But I felt bad about it because I thought I got this cool domain name, and I really wanted to do something. And it turns out I was like, so what am I doing good at? And at the time I was listening to a ton of podcasts.
Like they just, I listened to them while I'm folding my laundry, while I'm driving to work. Like they were just like that thing that I was really into. And also, um, I like to talk, if you can't tell by now. I'm like, uh, Michael Jordan, they should do like a last, you know, chat like documentary with me, you know, the Last Dance with him. I should be like the Last Chat because I will chat the heck out of somebody. I love to talk.
They used to be, I think I remember in my, on my, um, permission slips home they'd be like, Nicole is very bright, but she talks a lot or cannot stop talking during class. That's me. I was that girl. Okay. You know who that girl was - me!
And so I love to chat it up usually about nothing, just chit, chit, chit. That's what, that's what an instructor once said to me me, I'm like chit, chit, chit, I've got nothing to say. Well, I did have something to say about food. And so I thought why I like food. I like talking, I'm going to combine these together into a podcast show.
And so I worked on it like throughout the summer. I will tell you that I, like I had got the idea in June, but I didn't launch until September and 50% is because I had never launched a podcast. And it turns out there are actually quite a lot of work. Uh, go figure, just as much as the food blog except instead of taking pictures, it's all talking, talking, talking, which is a little easier for me because that's my gift.
Um, and the other 50% was fear. Like I was terrified to ask people to be on my podcast. I mean, it was just, it's like, think about that time where you had a crush on somebody and you thought, should I ask them out? Well, like by 5 and that's what it's like to ask the first guest to be on your podcast. That's why, you know, I, it took me till September to launch. Um, but I launched and I haven't looked back since. Okay, maybe a little bit of looking back, but mostly I've just kept going forward.
Jason: So your podcast is focused on, I think you phrased it as trying to unite a community of likeminded enthusiasts to you know, move beyond the recipes, just following recipes. How did you settle on that topic? And did you go through a few different variations or how do you, how do you recommend someone choose a topic for their podcast?
Nicole: Well, so I had help again. I'm not gonna just sit here and tell you, like, because I think a lot of times like when you hear an original, like an origin story, people are like and I was in my garage and I just started tinkering and stuff and that's like, never really quite it. Right?
Yes. I did think about starting a podcast. I knew I wanted to start one, but I worked with a company called CookIt Media. Um, and they have actually been interviewed on Food Blogger Pro. Um, uh, and, and what they do, um, is they're kind of like a food blogger branding company, where they help food bloggers figure out their brands. And they have this service where you could chat with them for an hour and explain what you were trying to do. And from your conversation, they would help you. It was almost like they were the food blog whispered. They could help you refine and hone your brand.
And I have a PR background. So I know how important it is to make your brand understandable from the very beginning, right. People don't do well with ambiguity. If you're like, Oh, I'm a food blog, but I'm also going to like do crafts, but I'm also going to talk about my travels, but I'm also going to like. But people are like, what are you about, you know. Like maybe like back when angel fire was a thing, you could do that, but nowadays you can't. You have to have a pretty specific brand.
And so I knew like from day one, people needed to understand. What am I about? Like, why, why am I talking and to the ether? Right. And they should at least be able to understand me. So I I've worked with them. And they helped me, like when I just, all the things I was talking about and I was just all over the place. Right? It was like, I was like, alright. And so, and so the food media folks were like, is this what you want? And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I want. And so that's how, you know, I came to be, Oh, I am like.
I wanted a community of likeminded enthusiastic. Because the thing is, is. I'm never going to be a chef. A chef's life is hard and I'm soft. And I know that about myself. And food blogger, life is also hard and I got no patience. Like I just want to eat the food. Like the reason I really failed to be in food bloggers, because you're supposed to be able to like take a picture of the food, you know, make it look pretty, uh, and maybe after it's all cold, you might get a chance to try it. And I'm just like, got no discipline for that. I got to eat it right now.
So the best I can do is I take like Instagram videos of while I'm making it. But yeah, I know it's getting devoured immediately into my face. So, uh, they were able to parse out that brand for me, because like I said, branding is so important to what you're going to do.
And, and that's kind of how I came up with that, is me throwing a bunch of stuff on the wall and them scraping it off and going, we think you mean this. And I was like, that's exactly what I mean. You know, you've been through that where you're trying to like, explain something and someone's like, you mean this? And you're like YES. And that's how I, I came up with my brand, I had help. And so I want to say to people out there who are considering, like, whether you're on your blog, like you don't have to do it all yourself. Just like I advocate for buy precut vegetables if that's what's going to get you in a kitchen cooking. Buy precut vegetables, you know, buy precut meat.
Like if you just, all the dump it in a pot, you know, to get yourself started. You don't have to do it all yourself as a food blogger and podcaster. Ask for help. If you can afford help, ask for help. And if you can't, what I also recommend is there are like all these, like branding worksheets on the internet that help you like define what your brand is. So that if you lets say you're just like girl I don't have no money to be like hiring a branding expert. I would say if you plan on making this your business thing then yeah, you do, you know, you need to maybe save for a couple of months. But, but do it. And, and the next thing I would tell you is, is that if you can't afford that get some type of branding sheet and walk through and defined and yourself.
What are you about when people, when you tell people, you know, even your, your, I give my 5 second spiel, you know, BFF With the Chef is the podcast that aims to make you a better home cook by talking to chefs and food bloggers about the things you're cooking and eating in their kitchen. Boom. That's exactly, you know, as an audience member, what you're going to get from me, and you should be able to articulate that because as you go along, what I found is that people well reach out to me like sponsors and other, you know, uh, media type folks. And I need to be able to quickly tell them, you know, an elevator ride, what is my podcast?
I can't tell you many times I've been hanging out with somebody and someone's like, Oh, you know, she has a podcast. And you're like, Oh, what's your podcast about, boom, you know, You should be able to immediately say what your blog or your podcast is about in one sentence. And that's your brand.
So that's, I got help with that though. And I am a professional. I do that for other people. You don't have to do yourself, get help.
Jason: I think that's so important to know exactly what you stand for and to be able to articulate it. A lot of people you say, Oh, what do you do? And it's a 5-minute kind of meandering thing about you come away with like, so food kind of, yeah.
Nicole: And then I'm like, I'm out. And then, and then people are like, Oh, that's a hobby, not a business. Right? So if you take more than like, if you're not like super laser focused on like what you're about I can tell you, whenever somebody tells me, they're like, I asked someone once they're out, I was like, Oh, you know, you're a, you're a businessman. What do you do? And he's like, Oh, well, you know, I own a club, but you know, it's also like a community center, but it's also like, you know, a daycare, but it's also like, you know, a nightclub, but also sometimes it's a restaurant. I'm like, what, what is this? Like, like immediately, I'm like, I'm not going, I'm not going to take away, I'm not gonna take children there. I'm not going to drink there. And I'm absolutely not going to eat there. Like, it's too many things like, you know, foc focus down because, um, I, then I think you're not very, either not, you're not very good at any of those things or you don't know how to be concise. If you can't be concise with your words and you can't be concise with your food, so.
Jason: Yep. And you can practice it really easily. Like you said, you can go get help, which is a great thing to do. And while you're trying to narrow it down, you can even just go to your friends in the middle of a conversation and be like, Hey, can I have two minutes of your time? I'm going to tell you what I do, and you let me know what you take out of it and if it makes sense. And give them your pitch, and at first, they'll be like, I know what you do, and I don't understand what you just told me. You know? And then you can narrow it and hone it down until people will understand what you do. You get used to just rattling it off and then it feels very natural.
Nicole: Yeah. Simplicity is key. It needs to be, you need to be able to, so a 10-year-old should be able to like, get what you do. Like they may not understand all of it, but they're can repeat it back to you. If it's too hard for a 10-year-old to tell you, it's too long.
Jason: You need to focus on your main one or two things and that's it. And because it's not the end of a conversation, it's if you do it right, it's going to open up a conversation. And then you can talk about the nightclub speakeasy that you have above the daycare in the middle of the night. But you don't need to lead with that.
Nicole: Exactly, otherwise it's like don't go there.
Jason: All the kids were little waiters, it's a beautiful show.
Nicole: It's like, we came up with the, yeah, no, this is like, you know, I'm not going there. I'm out.
Jason: So there's lots of different types of podcasts. There are interview podcasts like this one, and that's what you do as well. There are hosts on the mike podcasts where it's one person, almost like a radio show, just talking. And there are more produced ones that are more like stories and storytelling. How did you decide on doing an interview style?
Nicole: Well, so I did some research and while I can talk a lot, I mean, we saw that during the Facebook live that I can literally talk for an hour without anyone talking back. I felt that was going to get old pretty quickly. You generally people. It's hard to listen to one person talk unless they are giving you actionable advice immediately.
So a good example of someone who does a great podcast like that is a guy named Ken Page, and he does a Deeper Dating Podcast. I know it's not related to food. People are like, what? But the reason I say check out his podcast is not so much for his content, but the fact of how he does it. So, so Ken is a therapist and what he's doing is he's giving advice to people, right?
Like his whole topic is advice. And so it's a, it's probably about 20 minutes per podcast, you know? Because that's really about what people can stand if you're just by yourself. And it's all actionable advice. Like he'll explain something, talking to you and then he'll give you advice on actual things to take out of it.
And so you can do that, but you know, my topic didn't really lend towards that. Because again, I don't have a whole lot of advice to give people. And I find that most people don't generally. The people who can do a solo podcast are people who are like therapists. Or there are people who are technicians who have instructions they're trying to give you, be it for life or how to like, you know, make a bird, you know, a bird cage or how to train your puppy. That's how that's actionable advice. And people will only take that for about 20 minutes, right? That's about how long you can go before people tune you out or they're just like, Oh, this is boring.
You know, having a, I find that when you have a, um, or you have to be very famous, Right. Like, I might listen to Cher talk, you know, for 30 minutes about anything. But she Cher. I'm not going to listen to some random, you know, person that I don't know, talk about, oh and then I took the dog for a walk. I mean, all of a sudden that's an ASR podcast and that's completely different kind of thing.
Um, so the second type of podcast, of course um, is an interview podcast. And I find that those are better because you have interaction between people, right? And then there's 2 types of interview podcasts, or there's several, but the 2 I normally hear is 1is like you interview a person about their life and how he got started and their career and blah, blah, blah.
And the second one is you're interviewing a person who's an expert. And you are helping the audience as the conduit. Like you're the stand in for the audience, you know, that you assume the audience doesn't know that much as the host you act like you don't know a lot, even if you do, because you are asking the questions that are on the audience's mind. And that's the approach I tend to take. I guess kind of mash them up a little bit. I do want to know where people started from, because I think it inspires people to hear, Oh no, these people are just like you, right? Like. And a lot of people have a dream of becoming a chef or starting their own food blog. And it's always great for them to hear how it got started.
But then this is BFF with the Chef. And one of the things is we talk about people, making people better, home cooks. You can only become a better home cook if you hear about what people are talking about, or what they're eating and what they're cooking and how they're doing it. So that's why I always tend to try to make people get into the recipes and walk us through it. Like, let's talk about this. Okay. Let's talk about that technique. Or what you mixed peas and like sugar together? What are you crazy? Like? No, no one's ever done that by the way. That's gross. But if they did, I would make them walk me through why did they do that. Because people are trying to learn something and I'm acting as the audience. Like, I don't understand what's going on. So explain this to me because I want to know.
You ever listened to an interview and the person says something interesting and interviewer doesn't go dig into that? I'm convinced that's why Oprah is at the top of her game. Because if you say something interesting to Oprah, she's not going to let it go. She's going to dig into that because she wants to, she is naturally a curious person. And so I try to emulate Oprah and be naturally curious because I think she's one of the best interviewers in the world. And the reason she is because she just herself is fascinated with the person that is in front of her. And I am always fascinated.
One of the best things about doing a podcast is I am truly fascinated by every person that's come on my podcast. There's not one person that came on that podcast that I didn't think was the most interesting person in the world. I'm like, wow. I know there's those people in the world are still credible and amazing. And every single person. Every single one. I can say that without a doubt is one of the most interesting people I've ever met and I've learned so much from them. So I think that people hear that in my voice and that makes it more interesting.
And you can take that format out a little bit longer. So yeah.
Jason: I love that idea of being curious and it's something that I try to do in my interviews. And it's so important to not just have a list of questions that you're going to read. And the person being interviewed says something interesting. It's like, great, but my next question is this. And it's like, but I wanted to, I want to hear more about that. What was that? And so.
Nicole: Exactly, exactly. Plus it sounds weird, it's like, what are you a Stepford-like, you know, interviewer, like, come on, have a personality. And I, often times people are asking me when I, when I send them a list of interview questions, but I warned them like, you know, I'm not going to really stick to that that's just so you feel good. But don't, I like, don't like sit there and write out answers to each of those questions.
I've had people try to do that and then they're wait. Like, but I wrote all these, I'm like, you did homework? I told you not to do homework. Don't do homework because you were just going to be naturally interesting because of who you are. And I will tell you that there are people who are like, I'm actually not that interesting. And I would say I disagree. Everybody in the world is interesting. Everybody has, everybody has a unique way of doing something. Uh, I've not met one person who doesn't have one killer cooking tip. You know, even if this person burns water, they know how to find the best sandwiches in the city.
Like they have something that's related to food, that's a killer tip. And so I would implore everybody you are more unique and special and interesting than you think you are. You know. I didn't think I was very special and then. Uh, every time I try to end this podcast, people, someone will say, I love your podcast. And like
Jason: Yeah, it's, it's definitely an interesting experience interviewing people and talking to them and trying to dive in. And people would be like, well, I don't know if I have much to share. And it's like, I interviewed a lot of food bloggers. I'm like you have a food blog that, you know, 10 X it's traffic over the last year, and you think you don't have anything to share to all the other food bloggers?
Nicole: So I'm like, I've been food blogging for 10 years, and I want to talk to you and hear what you did. Much less someone who's just getting started. You definitely have a lot to share. I only is just like have a million followers and you know, Oh, I'm not that interesting. I'm like, You started, do you know any people just like, you know, and no offense to any of those people, but you don't have people just like, sit and watch Netflix on the weekend.
Like, that's just what they do. Right. You know, that's it, right. You said, Hey, I'm going to put it down the remote for 10 minutes, 10 minutes. And I'm going to go do this other thing. Right. I'm going to create something. If you are a create, if you create something, whether you make money from it or not, you are by default an interesting person.
You know, it's always the ones who have like I have a million followers, but I got nothing to share. I'm just, I'm just Sally from like the farm, like get out of here, Sally, you know, you got stuff to share.
Jason: So one of the things I wanted to talk about, cause I know it's everyone's favorite question whenever you talk about anything, any direction you can take a food blog. Everyone wants to know how do you make money from this? Because at the root, that's what a lot of us are doing for food blogging. So when it comes to podcasting, how do you make money from podcasting?
Nicole: Oh, can someone tell me. I would tell you that, um, if you would like to have a full time second job that you pay for, a podcast is a great way to start. So would someone tell me? I am just now beginning to like get offers to make money. But that's like, I'm on season 5, right? Like, and, and in actuality, like this is 2 years later.
So it tells you that, um, for people, so there's 2 types of people, right? If you already have a food blog and you are looking to start a podcast, a podcast is an amazing way to create more content for your blog and for your overall business. Because really what we are food bloggers is we're content creators. That's the business model.
And so if you are looking to create more content, a podcast is a very effective way to do that because you have the transcripts from the podcast, you can repurpose that into blog posts. You can use that to make an ebook. Um, you could interview people about a subject that you want to write a book about, right? You could, I mean, there's just so many ways to repurpose that, right?
Jason: All the snippets and stuff on social media.
Nicole: Social media, you know, another way to drive people to your blog because you can put it up on YouTube and all the different, you know, podcast things. Um, but that comes at a cost, right, for time. And also, uh, you have to, you have to be passionate about doing it. If you're the type of person who I always tell people, someone asked me, Hey, you know, like, should I start podcasts? And I'll come back to in a moment. And I asked him a couple of questions that will tell me if they're really gonna do well on the podcast.
So if you're a person who's just starting out though, you have no blog, right? So this is a great content maker. And if it's, you know, it would take a while to make money, that's the, the premise of them both. If you don't have a blog, if you were like me and you're just like, I just want to talk, talk, talk about food, right? It's going to take you a couple of years. There's no overnight success, right? I will tell you that I have a lot bigger numbers than what I started. I'm surprised at my numbers. I still haven't made any money. I have a full-time job that I work and just like any business, right, it takes a couple of years to make any money.
So, but let's talk about some ways you could make money and in ways that I'm pursuing, you know, funding for this, you know, super hobby that has somehow turned into a side business at some point. Um, and the first way is sponsorships. And when you're small, people are like, well, you know, you have to get a certain number, set of numbers.
Uh, not necessarily. I'll admit partially is that because I have this full-time military career, I haven't seen yet as much time pursuing sponsors. Probably if I did, I probably would get some sponsors at now because I've proven that I'm serious. Season 5, I think season 5 says you're pretty serious, right?
A company that's looking for a niche, um, audience, um, will, will consider sponsoring you. Because they're reaching people who they, you know, they're reaching a very targeted audience. I mean, I really focused on food bloggers and chefs. So I have a very targeted audience and I can describe that audience to them.
So the first thing is don't be afraid to reach out to those companies that you think would fit into your branded niche. They probably, you know, companies are busy, so not because they don't want to spend money and advertise to your audience is that they may not know about you because you may not be showing up yet in Google.
I am surprised by how many people tell me they find me through Google. Several companies have found me that way. They were just looking for a food podcast, boop, here I went. So my SEO must be doing okay. And that's with a Squarespace website y'all which I was told from the beginning, don't use Squarespace. And I thought, well, Mark Marin uses Squarespace so I'm going to use Squarespace, you know, I just like, I.
I try to use WordPress. It just doesn't like, I can't be bothered. It's just too hard for me. Maybe one day I'll switch to WordPress, but, uh, my website, it works and I'm still found by people. So sponsorships, whether they are reach you, I think that's a best way a podcast can start making money.
Um, another way is you could use Patreon so you could do special episodes and then put them behind the Patreon power. Um, paywall and then ask your fans to find, you know, like, Hey, if you want to listen to this podcast, it's like 5 bucks, right? It's a special episode where maybe you go all into a certain topic.
Like, for example, if you were going to start a podcast, I would tell you, Hey, maybe you could do a 5 series episode on how to get started. And like, no kidding, like walk people through it. And it's like, the cost of it is 20 bucks. That's another way you can, you could sell like podcast courses.
And then of course, there's just straight up advertising with media. I don't know a whole lot about that. I don't think a lot of podcasters use that. They tend to use other podcasts advertising networks.
But I will say, say there are ways to make money in podcasting. I don't want to pretend like, you know, I've made any money, I haven't. But I think I will in the future. How much I'll come back on the show and tell you how much, like I got no problems being like I made $45. I did get a set of free knives. Winning right. Knives for, for an in exchange for, for doing some reviews about them? Uh, and I didn't have to do like a review that was honest. I showed you right how I was using it, but those are pretty nice knives. So I made what those knives are probably worth $200. I made $200 and knives.
Jason: I think like a lot of things around food blogging and business in general, it's you need to know what your goals are going into something. And if your goal is to monetize a podcast to make a lot of money off of it, it's going to be a very specific direction you need to go in. And if your goal is to expand your network it's very easy to accomplish with a podcast.
You know, that's why I started one for Makin' Bacon because I wanted to get to know other food bloggers, expand my brand in the food blogging world. I wasn't very, despite in it for 10 years, I was just getting started really networking with people. And I get to have amazing people, you know, on the show that I get to have one-on-one conversations with, and I'm not asking them for anything really. And it's, we can meet as peers.
So now when I go to a conference, I can go up to people like Jenny Melrose and Nicole and Sally Ekus and say, Hey, and they're like, Oh, it's great to see you again. And it expanded my network, but I'm not making any money off of this, but it's getting me closer to the goal that I was trying to accomplish.
Nicole: Yes. So, so when people ask me for, so these are the questions I get asked about podcasts. The first question is how to start a podcast, right? And I'm like, you need, you need 5 things. Right. And we can go into that later. The second question is, do you think I would be good at a podcast? And I'm like, Hmm I don't know. Like, let me ask you some questions. And the third thing is like, why, you know, if you're not making money, why do you, why do you keep doing it?
So I'll, I'll answer the second two questions first. Um, would you be good at starting a podcast? Do you like to talk? Because that's like, you know, especially the audio podcasts, that's kind of how it is. If you're a person who doesn't like to talk, you can still do one. It's going to come, it's going to be more difficult for you because that's not your natural inclination is to chat. Like all you have in a podcast is your voice and chat, chat, chat in a way. And if you aren't a person who's naturally chatty it's going to be tough. Because again, there could be a whole lot of silence. Not say that's impossible. In fact, I think people who want to get better at conversing and chatting, a podcast is an amazing way to you force yourself to do that.
It forces you to talk to other people and to not just go, uh, you know. You can't look at your phone, you know. Whenever I see people go to parties, and people are like, I never meet anybody, right. I don't make any friends. And I'm like, yeah because you look at your phone now all the time. Like, no one's engaging you because they think you're busy. Like, I don't know, launching mortars until I let you mortars into a war zone because you're on your phone all the time. Like, what are you doing? Get off your phone. Look up, smile, be approachable. And people will approach you.
A podcast forces you to do that in a very safe environment, because if it's terrible, yeah, right, you, you don't have to air it. If I practiced before I put out my first episode. Because even I knew that naturally chatty Nicole was not polished enough to be on the air yet. So a podcast is a wonderful way to break through some social anxiety.
The second thing I asked them is
Jason: I would say really quick to that. If, if a podcast is something you want to do and you are an introvert or you're, like, if you hate talking it's one thing, but if you aren't an introvert, like I'm introverted. I generally, especially 5 years ago, wasn't comfortable having one-on-one conversations. Like I was okay. Like I wasn't too bad, but it wasn't something that I enjoyed. I didn't go like going to conferences, I didn't enjoy any of the networking. And it's something I've really worked on over the last 5 years. And it's, like, it's still not something I love, but I enjoy, you know, hosting a podcast like this. And when this is done, I will have had my social interaction for the day. And don't, don't need to see another person or talk anymore.
Nicole: You're like, I'm good. Right. But it's helpful. And also it helps you to realize, Oh, I can be an interesting person, I can ask good questions. And it helps. I think podcasts are great for introverts too, to help them break through, uh, that feeling of like, I don't know what to say. Because when you're interviewing somebody, all you have to do is ask a bunch of questions, you don't have to talk about yourself.
You know, you can, yeah, I am naturally extroverted, but doing a podcast has helped me to listen more, because you have to listen in order to do a great interview. You must listen so that you can pick up on those interesting things. Someone said, you know, when you have a normal conversation, generally, I'm just waiting to talk more like, but, but in an interview you can't, you can't do it. And it has forced me to learn to listen better. And it's made me a better conversationalist in real life. So there are benefits to it. So just because you don't like to talk, if you want to do a podcast, you should.
And the second thing is, is do you have a topic that you're passionate about? It doesn't have to be food. Uh, it can be on the most random thing, as long as it's, you know, focused and you like talking about it or you like thinking about it or you have a lot of thoughts about it. So that's when people ask me like, well, I don't really like to talk and I'm like, do you not like to talk? Or is it just that you get nervous and you think you don't have anything interesting to share. And that goes back to what was that? Like, everybody has something interesting to share. So yeah, shout out if there's anyone who wants to do a podcast.
I love the show Psych. I have wanted to do a rewatch podcast on that show forever where we just watch every episode of Psych. Yeah. And we talk about it. I love that show. I could talk about it for hours. That's a, that's a podcast. Somebody steal that idea.
Jason: We're in season 3 right now of our rewatch.
Nicloe: Yeah. I love it. I, you know, I think season 3 is the best season of Psych, but see what I'm saying? Right. There's a podcast, right? Somebody steal that idea. I will watch. I will listen to. And that's another thing about podcasts people think, well, there's so many podcasts out there. Why should I start my podcasts? There's too many. No other. Are there too many food blogs? Are there too many books? Like are there too many are too many TV shows? Maybe? No, no, there's not. There's not, it's not a zero sum game. If I like TV shows, um, you know, about dragons. Okay. I'm not going to just watch one TV show about dragons. I'm gonna watch all the TV shows about dragons. If I like murder mysteries, I'm not going to read one. I'm going to read that them all. So every, you know, everybody thinks like, yeah, Oh, content is a zero sum game.
It's not like there is always room for more content. I mean, look at Bingeing with Babish. Right. It's just some dude who was like trying to get over a heartbreak and decided to like, just start, you know, cooking and making content for himself, right? He didn't realize he's going to blow up. He's just making content that he liked to make.
And it's a zero-sum game. You don't have to, you know, I have a podcast and you can have a podcast. Like that's just more people to interview, that's just more cross connection. And in fact, I tell people, when you start a podcast, look for other podcasters like you. One you'll know if your topic is a viable topic. You want a lot of people in that topic and 2 that's other people to emulate. That's other people to chat with. I don't know anyone who's ever asked me about being on their podcast or who's asked me about starting a podcast that. I'm not like, Nope, I'm going to keep all my secrets to myself. No, I'm like give it all this away for free because we all rise when podcasts are popular, all of the podcasts rise.
Like TV's not just like, I just want to remember when it was just like 3, 3, uh, channels of TV. I do. That's how old I am. Like it was terrible. All you watched was Mash. And I used to think, I can't wait for the day when there's more than just Mash on TV. And I in the military now, right now, it's incredible. I can watch exactly what I want. And I can watch the kind of niche that I want. And I can listen to the things that I want. So if you think that there's too many podcasts, you're wrong, there's not enough. Let's get more out there. There's cream rises to the top and you don't know that you're cream, unless you try. So you should, you should, you should do it. Do it. Start your podcast.
Jason: So, someone heard that and said great, I'm going to do this. They understand how a conversation works. You know, we've all had conversations, and everyone right now is currently listening to a podcast. So we understand how to listen to a podcast. What happens in between a conversation to make it a downloadable podcast you can now listen on your phone? What is that process from a high level?
Nicole: Oh man. So I'll walk you through my process. So, you know, you, and I let's say this is my, my podcast, which you were on and we'll be out here in a couple of weeks. Um, so I take that audio file and I like, I am a big stickler on audio, um, because I feel like if they can't see me, then all they have is my voice. So better sound good, especially as the host.
So I take that and I have a company that I use. So in the beginning, I wanted, let me talk to you about people in the beginning because now I've like decided that is worth my time to use an editor to help me edit this podcast. But in the beginning, I was doing it myself and it was hours of work because I was new. Excuse me. I was new to it.
I would tell people that like, there's a cost factor involved at your time when you start anything new, right? Like when you first learned to cook, it was, it was, it was hard, right? It wasn't, you didn't get it right. Like, you know, you burned a lot of things. It was a whole thing. So the same with podcasts. Right. When I first started, I had to like, learn how to edit a podcast and learn how to record a podcast and, you know, figure out what mike I wanted to get.
And, oh, by the way, you don't need to get a super expensive mike. Like if you're spending more than $100 on a mike, it's probably too much in the beginning. You know, you need to find out, am I going to stick with this? That's the biggest thing. Are you going to stick with it?
So I get it out of, you know, I have it in my computer and then I would edit it in Adobe. Oh gosh, Audition. Yeah. Adobe Audition. Um, and like I said, I would listen to the whole thing and then I would make notes on what sections I want it to cut out, or what section sounded too tinny or what section, you know, if somebody coughed or if somebody like, you know, they rambled on for too long, which is what I tend to do. Or I, it's mostly me, me as to who was rambling too long. And I would make. The cuts, like I would put like the they're like little markers that make the cuts on where I'd want to cut out that audio and then you just start cutting and shoving it together. Um, and if you listen in the beginning, you know, you might be able to see like where I was like cutting things, things, and I didn't have like a super smooth transition. And you just learn that over time, time, truth, thousands of YouTube videos.
Or you get like me and you get frustrated and hire somebody to do it for you. And that was like I said, that was some money after it's all cut together. Then I have a routine intro um, that you put in the beginning that fades in. And then I have, like, when the interview is done, I have like a timer so that, you know, interviews done.
Right. And then I do what I call my summation and that's separately. So after I've listened to the episode, I write a summation based on, on what the episode was. In the beginning it used to be in a really apologetic, summation, like, Oh, I made this mistake here and sorry about that. Because I thought people were just going to call me on that. Turns out people don't care. Like I don't even, I didn't even bother to point out my mistakes anymore. Because people will forgive you because you're their friend on, on the radio. You know, you'll forgive a lot of things. So I would tell people one of the mistakes I made was constantly pointing out all my mistakes and apologizing, and nobody cares, like it's free content. Like they don't expect perfection, so they probably didn't end.
Jason: They're not making a recipe or something. They're going to ruin their dinner.
Nicole: They're just listening to you while they're trying to chase a toddler and, you know, stuff that toddler from killing itself for the 15 time that day. They're not going to worry about you actually said, I used to make up words. I think I made up a word that was like, uh, It's a "tragesty". That's not a word, Jason. Right. I said that and I was like, Oh God, that's so stupid. But nobody else cared. They thought it was funny.
So I finished the summation. Then I smash it all together into that program, which I'm making it sound really easy, it takes a while to learn it. So don't be intimidated if you first start and you're like, Oh man, this is tough. Yeah. It's tough. Like you ever edit video? That stuff is too. But you learn, that's why YouTube exists. Like it's a million YouTube, YouTube tutorials that can help you with that. Or some there's some there's even now new podcasts I guess software that will help you do this a lot easier.
And then I export it into a MP3 file. Um, and then I put it up. Like I had a schedule. I recommend for people if you're going to start a podcast, you need to have like a schedule. Like, are you going to be a season? Are you going to be weekly? Are you going to be biweekly or you be monthly?
I think the minimum for a podcast is you have to be at least every 2 weeks. Because people need to be able to expect you to show up like on their phones or, you know, in their YouTube queue. Because if you don't, then it's like, I think a month is too long.
Unless you're doing something like, there's a guy who does this, he does this, a podcast it's called Lessons from a Screenplay. And these are video podcasts and they're very intensive. Like it probably takes them 2 weeks to make one. He's probably putting one out once a month. But those are like 10 minutes long and there are cuts from like the movie and it's got a lot of like graphic intensive. So I understand that.
But generally for an audio podcast, you want to try to be weekly or biweekly so that people remember you and you grow in a relationship with them. So I put it out on every Thursday. I used to do Wednesday but I found that I was competing too hard with too many other podcasts. Thursday was better. Also. I needed that extra day to like, you know, screw up. So I put it on Thursday.
I put it out Thursday morning and that's just like, and how I put it out is I host on Libsyn, which is a podcast host. So you can't just like throw your podcast out, throw and you have to like a website, you have to host that data somewhere, and it's hosted for me on Libsyn. I think that they're the most, they're the most established. They're the cheapest in the business and they are pretty, they know what they're doing. They've been around since this started. So I trust Libsyn. I'm not many problems with them. Um, and I think they get the job done and it's not that expensive. It's around 20 bucks a month to host with them. And so I could afford that, like you know, it's $20. It's like 3 lattes, that's 3 lattes maybe now. So yeah, it's worth it for me.
Um, and that's how I put out the podcast. Now I didn't talk to you because I don't want to bore you when the death about the sheer amount of like other work that goes into it.
Like the marketing. Um, or I try to create a marketing email for my guests so that it's easy for them. So the number one rule is if you have guests, it should be so easy for them to be on your podcast that it's a no brainer. So when I approach a guest, when I book them, when I get them ready for the podcast, I try really hard to explain everything so that all they have to do is jump onto Skype.
And I use Skype. I've tried all the podcasts ones. It's to me, Skype with the, um, recorder, Skype Recorder is by far the easiest and the cheapest just way to do it. And I was going to go Gucchi, right. I would pay for a more Gucchi Solution. But there is none, Skype is the best. It's, it's the most reliable I've had other software that's failed me 7 times. And I'm just like, I won't put a guest through that. So
Jason: I use Skype for all my stuff, too, when I can as well. It's the same reasons.
Nicole: It's the standard and it's fine. So I have a marketing email that I put together for the guests so they can help share the episode. Then I post to Instagram.
I used to post every day to Instagram and I found that the algorithm doesn't like it, it actually likes it when you only post a couple of times a week. You learn that through trial and error. A lot of me starting a podcast was trial and error. It was me teaching myself things or learn things on the fly. And there is something like, even if I never make any money from this, there is something valuable about learning to do this because I learned about how to market myself and how to build a brand and how to produce content on a weekly basis and how to deliver results. Like how to no kidding. And then how to evaluate like, okay, this week I didn't have as many listens. Why was that? Or, wow, what happened this week? I had like, people shot up what, what caused and so just those lessons alone have taught, they've helped me in my regular job. Because I do this, you know, I do PR for a living.
And so learning how to create and start a brand, man, that's been super valuable. I mean, if nothing else, like I, one day will have to leave the military. And now I have this portfolio of work that I've created for myself that shows, Hey, I know how to like, build a brand. Like I can be a brand manager. Look, I built this brand like see, here's all my numbers. And here's how, you know, I marketed it and here's all the streams of revenue that I tried to produce. And here's all the different channels that I was able to put myself into. And yeah. You know, whether you're trying to make your food blog, your, your thing for life, or whether you decide at some point, you know what I have a lot of fun. I'm good. That's still a marketable skill that you've taught yourself, so worth it.
Jason: I think it's great. Knowing how many different outcomes come from, whether it's podcasting or learning YouTube or these different skills that we think of. You know, we get so focused in our food blogger mindset of like, how am I going to sell cookbooks or sell ads or make more money from this directly, but it can be very great for just life skills and for things moving beyond. If you are start a successful podcast, even if you don't have huge listeners, but the brands like you, there's no reason that like a Bob's Red Mill might not go, Hey, we've been thinking about doing a podcast. You've had this on your podcast twice and interviewed us. Because you write about or talk about food. Do you want to come be our head podcaster? Like there's a lot of kind of exit strategies that you can have.
Nicole: Right. You know, I think like a lot of people, you know you think about all the moms out there, or all the people who started a food blog. And maybe they haven't been in the workforce for a while, and this is what they started their food blog. You know, uh, everybody won't be a monster, you know, success. Right. But there can, success can be found.
But like, this is another way to build. Like, I wasn't just like, you know, although I think like, I think everyone has realized now stay at home with your kids, like is the hardest job in the world. Now I think I want to see a meme or stay at home moms are like, Oh yeah, the stay at home and clean the house and, you know, homeschool your kids. Hard, you know. Stay at home moms are like, they're the only ones winning during this pandemic because we all realize, Oh my gosh, teachers deserve way more money. Stay at home moms deserve way more credit.
But like maybe you're looking to get back into the workforce. This is a way to like, show, like I wasn't, you know, I wasn't fooling around, like I built a brand, I know how to do these skillsets. Like I'm not, you know, I'm skilled at managing, you know, and a brand that I built from the ground up. And so, you know, there's many reasons to start a podcast or a blog more than just, I'm going to, you know, make money from this. I think it's a great portfolio, place for anybody.
Jason: One of the things you mentioned before that I wanted to touch on again, while we're wrapping up is how do you find guests for your podcast? You mentioned it briefly and I've heard you talk about it before, but it's, it can be very nerve wracking to try to find someone to come on to interview.
Nicole: When I first started looking for guests, I was a member of Food Blogger Pro. And I was terrified. I asked the moderator, Hey, is it okay if I post looking for guests for my podcast? I always think people are going to say, no. I'm surprised at how many times people don't say no. They're like, yeah, no, that's fine. Right. So she's like, sure, it's not a big deal.
So I posted, Hey, I'm looking for guests for my podcast. And, you know, the first guy who who've reached out was a guy named Ben then from a Ramshackle Pantry. And, uh, he, what a lovely person, by the way, he's so, he's so funny. And, and he was my first guest and I will always be grateful to him, you know, because he was like, sure, I'd love to be on your podcast and he's my very first guest. So I made a bunch of mistakes then. But he was fan-tastic and such a sweet, sweet person. Ben Meyer from, um, from a Ramshackle Ramshackle Pantry. I can't promote them enough because he was wonderful.
Uh, and so I found guest people are like, yeah, I'd love to be on your podcast. And so I had that a little bit of criteria, not because I wanted to be a snob, but because I wanted to make sure I was getting guests who, who were ready to do this.
Um, so I put on a criteria that you had to have a blog for at least a year, or you needed to work in the food industry currently. And, um, that allows me to eliminate people who, you know, look like myself, who had started a blog for 5 minutes, you know, and want to talk about my 4 recipes. Right. And then it wasn't going to continue on because I wanted people who were still blogging.
When you went to those podcast episodes later on the line, like Ben still doing his thing. Like most of my guests are still blogging and, and working in the food industry. Um, and also it shows me that you're serious. Like you're serious about committing. Because I was serious. I was going to commit for 1 year to do the podcast, no matter what and now it's 2 years later, so there you go.
That's the only criteria I put on it, but in the beginning. So I tell people when you start your podcast and you're small and you think. Am I going to get the Chrissy Tiegen? Like, no, probably not. Right. And that's okay. You don't want Chrissy Tiegen. And the reason is, cause she's too big for you, right? You would be too nervous. Like you would not be able, you would freak out because you can't make all your although I think Chrissy Keegan would be a wonderful guest and she would be super gracious. Right? She's a big fish.
You don't want to start with a big fish, right? You want to start with people who are on your level. So you're comfortable. So you gain your skillset. Oprah was not Oprah in the beginning, right? She was a local news reporter and she was interviewing people for the local news. She only became Oprah after she'd done it for 10 years before she moved on to start her own talk show, it took her a long time.
Like she didn't start up. No one's, you know, started out like Mark Marin, wasn't Mark Marin in the beginning. Right. And he's done, like, I think he's done over like, gosh, I want to say 300, 400 episodes, right? That's a lot, but it started it's small and he didn't start out with super major guests.
Joe Rogan didn't start out as Joe Rogan, he was just a comic and he decided to start a podcast and he interviewed a lot of people and he made a lot of mistakes. So the reason I say all that is start small, you know. Like if there's a guest who she's had a podcast, or maybe she's only had a blog for a year, that's a great person interview. Those are my favorite type of people to interview because they're so excited still about their, their blog. And they're excited to talk about food and they're honored that somebody has asked them about their opinion. Those are great guests.
I have found that if you aren't getting enough nos you haven't asked big enough people after a certain point. Someone told me that like, if you keep getting all yeses, that means you haven't stretched yourself far enough to ask people. And I still don't get no. So I've never gotten a no, Jason, I just haven't gotten a call back or I didn't get an email back. Right. And that's a no, right. And it may not.
I'll give you an example. I just interviewed, um, Nicole Tingwall from the Windy City Dinner Fairy. I hope I'm saying her name right. And she's wonderful. And she's big. She's a big-time food stylist. And, uh, the first time I reached out to her, I didn't hear anything back from her. It turns out she was pregnant in the middle of having a baby. Right. That's why it was a no, I reached out to her a couple of months later at the, at the, uh, encouragement of another food blogger.
And she said, yes, That was a big get for me. Right. I've been following her for a year. Sometimes it's a no right now. Um, but it's not a no forever. And sometimes it's just the, no, because I'm busy. You don't know, but don't take that rejection as, Oh, I'm just a small, like content is content.
I'm one day going to ask Rosie Degan to be on my podcast. Right. I'm going to do it because she's amazing. And she probably would say, yes. I'm not ready for Chrissy Tiegen yet. But I will be right. Or, or, or for any of the other, you know, major food names out there. You can start small and build yourself up. Oprah wasn't Oprah when she started, she was just a news reporter honing her skills.
And so I tell people don't be afraid to ask. I've gone to food blog. I've asked an Everything Food Conference. I go, you know, the second thing I was tell you, go where you're go, where the people you want to interview are, I want to interview chefs. I want to interview food bloggers. So where do chefs and food bloggers hang out? Instagram, uh, they hang out on, uh, they don't really hang out on Twitter that much, but they're on Instagram a lot. They're in, you know, Facebook forums, uh, about food and food blogging.
And I put out a request, Hey, I'm looking for this type of person. If you're interested in being interviewed, reach out to me. And people do. I have a person who has a publicist and a team reached out to me like several times, like people have been on the food network have reached out to me. I mean, uh, and, and asked me to interview their person because they're always looking for places to interview people. That's one good thing about podcast is that when you're.
When you're hosting something and you're interviewing people, you're doing them a favor in a way, because you're media. So people are always trying to get media to, to interview their people. Because that's constant, it lives on the web. So more than likely say yes. And even if it's not a yes, right now, it's like, yes, hit me up in 6 months when my book comes out. Do that and you will get guests. I've never had an outright no, never, never because people they're there they're honored when you reach out to them. I didn't realize that, but you think you're not a big deal and people are like me, he would like to talk to me.
Yes. I would like to talk to you. And then they're excited, especially when you're at these yardstick, you know, and you're excited about them.
Jason: I think it's very important. Like you said, to start out small, cause you, you are learning no matter how much you practice ahead of time. The first time you're in a live interview with somebody it's very different.
My first 2 interviews were my mom and my dad, and then my next 3 were my best friends and like my best blogging friends came on and I interviewed them. And they were all people that I was so nervous. I was, you know, stressed out the whole time. And these are people that I could have done nothing, and they would have been like, Oh, that was fun. You know, like there was zero pressure and I was still a nervous wreck. And so getting through those nerves of just doing something you've never done before, and then you can move on. And if you had Chrissy Teigen on you'd be nervous about Chrissy Teigen, but you wouldn't be nervous about your sound or your audio or any of the other things around it.
Because you've already done that, you know, 40, 50, 60 times, like. You can stress out about that and just fall back into what you know, it's like for all the food bloggers out there, if you're stressed when you're cooking, it's probably not a big deal if it's a recipe you've done before. Because it's like stress, but I know what I'm doing now. And you can just focus on getting it done.
Nicole: Yeah. I mean, now I'm on season 5, right? I can just, I can easily like rip off, like, like I can do it. I can easily pull off an interview. Um, a lot faster and a lot easier. And if something goes wrong, I know how to recover because it's happened to me before. I mean, I've had interviews where I did the whole interview and the, the, the file corrupted. And I just felt like, Oh God, I'm never going to get over this. And you know, I've, I've gone through those hard knocks. I think the only way to learn is you gotta do, like, you gotta, you must do. You must like create. Because when you create and you make mistakes, then you learn from them.
It sounds so cheesy, but it's really true that the only, the only way to learn is to do.
Jason: I think that's a great thing to end the podcast on. I think you had a lot of great information. You have so much experience in podcasting. I had a blast when I came on yours. So it was nice to turn the tables and put you through the ringer a little bit. Force you to try to open up and talk a little bit, which I know is against your nature.
Nicole: I know, right.
Jason: Thank you for coming on and sharing so much. If people want to get a hold of you. They can check out your podcast or your website, the BFFwiththeChef.com. You have a lot of great content on there and some amazing episodes. So thank you so much for coming on Makin' Bacon.
Nicole: Oh, thank you so much for having me today, Jason, and thanks to everybody out there and just remember you can do this. Don't be afraid. Mama Schwegs is right here to help you. So feel free to reach out if you have questions. Bye.
This has been Makin' Bacon, all about helping you serve your fans, grow your income and get the most out of your blog.
Until next time, I'm Jason Logsdon.